87 Comments
I think that it would be very sensible for the separate mathematics subject associations to amalgamate. There is clearly 'strength in numbers' in terms of representing the profession in the media and in discussions with the Department for Education. An amalgamation would also bring increased opportunities to share expertise and for maths teachers to collaborate more widely, which is in the best interests of our students. A single subject association, like the ASE for science, would be welcomed by maths teachers.
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Fiona Yardley
11/6/2017 03:56:35 am
Agree 100% 11/1/2017 02:45:25 pm
Being brutally honest, none of the associations are fully representing the demographic they set out to support. Subscribers are fragmented across each association, and non-subscribers are often confused at the differences and choice. Join together and you have more clout in unity, more expertise, experience, and appeal across the board - and teachers have more incentive to join. Joining together is a necessity that only brings advantages to what matters most - the people who need you.
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Jennie Golding
11/2/2017 10:25:08 am
Absolutely!
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Tom Roper
11/6/2017 01:11:12 am
Agreed!!
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Jemma Sherwood
11/2/2017 06:33:33 am
I honestly can’t see any drawbacks in amalgamation. All the associations are doing good work in certain areas but I have always found it odd that we have to “pick a side” when everyone has the same aim. I would advocate amalgamation. Pooled resources and coordination can only be a good thing, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and all that.
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Jonny Griffiths
11/2/2017 06:36:41 am
I'm in favour of amalgamating. The reasons ATM broke away from the MA no longer hold. It is an ever more difficult marketplace, with people finding their communities elsewhere, and the finances of the ATM are in a pretty desperate state. It is true that each organisation has a different feel and emphasis, but by coming together we would enrich each other. I am however v concerned about possible office redundancies and the pain that would cause. But of course if the ATM folds completely financially, then it won't be able to afford an office at all.
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Jonny Griffiths
11/17/2017 09:43:39 am
Two weeks on, and talking to people seems to have changed my mind(!) Maybe the ATM does have a unique ethos that merging would destroy. But if independence is to be an option, the finances have to work, and that means skilful management. Do ex-maths teachers offering a few hours a week have these skills?
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11/2/2017 06:43:40 am
Those who know me will be aware that I've been pressing for the associations to merge for more than ten years. There were reasons why a second association was created way back in history, but the factors behind the split have become irrelevant to all but a tiny minority of individuals. For the vast majority of teachers, the existence of several associations is confusing and annoying. As a result, for most teachers it's not a question of 'which association should I join?' but 'why should I bother joining an association at all?'. Perhaps it helps to look at this from an international perspective. The countries whose maths culture is closest to ours - Australia and the USA - have unified associations for maths teachers, and the size of their annual conferences (sometimes 1,000 or more) reflects how much more effective they are. When I talk to teachers in other countries, they are baffled by the quirky, fragmented nature of maths bodies in the UK. I see two choices: make a proactive decision to merge now, or let economics and natural wastage force the decision in a few years' time.
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11/2/2017 06:51:16 am
Some thoughts about the annual national conferences:
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Jill Borcherds
11/11/2017 11:47:33 am
I have always wondered who on earth can afford to go to the conferences. I always look, think they would be worthwhile and interesting then look at the price which is always completely and utterly unaffordable.
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Douglas Hainline
11/2/2017 07:09:25 am
The existence of multiple organisations representing the mathematics teaching profession is a serious self-inflicted wound, understandable for religious sects or Trotskyites but ridiculous otherwise.
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Geoffrey Howson
11/2/2017 07:19:41 am
I can only agree with everything everyone has written so far, particularly as I have argued for this for many years.
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Peter Bailey
11/2/2017 07:20:53 am
Working towards a single association is a good idea if we can provide a wide range of interest groups and activities, so that we do keep all current members of the organisations.
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Dean Rowley
11/2/2017 07:36:52 am
I have been a member of ATM and MA for over 15 years now and both have given me amazing resources, thoughtful articles and opportunities to revel in mathematics but in the current climate the only option for moving forward is to amalgamate. Maths teachers need a strong voice in the crowd and together we are stronger and more experienced.
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Jane Appleton
11/2/2017 07:55:01 am
Sounds like a really good idea - may be able to have events in many different places if you are amalgamated as there will be more to go round!
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Geoffrey Boys
11/2/2017 08:08:53 am
The idea of amalgamating the MA and the ATM has been around for thirty years or more. I cannot see any argument for keeping the five assocations separate. I have been a member of the MA for more than 50 years and I can only see the advantages of joining up.
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Andrew Osbaldestin
11/2/2017 08:19:30 am
Just do it!
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11/2/2017 08:45:53 am
I whole-heartedly endorse the amalgamation for the reasons others have listed. I would like to support Douglas Butler's suggestion that the 2019 conferences be joint. The preparation for this would be an opportunity to iron out the legal and administrative problems involved in an eventual union.
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anonymous
11/2/2017 08:53:00 am
It might be aspirational but the MA has many assets and traditions which would be very difficult to shed.
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Jennie Golding
11/2/2017 10:24:29 am
Yes, it's aspirational. The MA is obliged, as a charity, to use its assets for its charitable purposes - roughly, the promotion of the health of mathematics and mathematics education. In the event of closure of the MA, that's the use to which the assets have to be put: one obvious option would be to transfer them to the new combined association. Yes, the MA has traditions, and so do other associations: we need to be sensitive to one another's as we move forward on this. My thinking is that it's our charitable aims that should be the priority: if the health of mathematics and mathematics education requires we work towards a unified professional association, then we should be seeking ways to make that happen and be solution-focused about the challenges.
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Rosemary
11/2/2017 09:26:09 am
Whatever the difficulties, complications and loss of individual identities it must make sense to amalgamate and to speak with one voice. Joint conferences could still allow for the variation in offerings of the two (or more) organisations being combined. Periodicals could continue as at present for the time being. Both have so much to offer but will find it hard to survive alone.
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David Miles
11/2/2017 11:14:55 am
Just echoing the views already expressed really. It's difficult to persuade classroom teachers to join a subject association when they are faced with too much choice and don't know which one they should pick. Let's remove that barrier and make the decision easy for them.
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Lesley Jones
11/10/2017 07:13:46 am
I do agree that it would be sensible to amalgamate. Together we are stronger. Not much to add to the comments above, but this proposal has been rattling around for years. Let’s get on and do it.
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Brian Patterson
11/2/2017 11:29:30 am
Since there is a substantial degree of overlap between the various bodies in respect of their objectives there is much to be gained by a merger. However, on re-reading Sue Pope's article I note the additional reference to the IMA, and would ask whether they should not be involved to some degree. Surely teachers of mathematics are justified in describing themselves as professional mathematicians also? I joined the MA as long ago as 1961 and still retain that membership even though long since retired from active teaching (as such). However I do recognise (as someone else has noted) that attendance at meetings of the majority of equivalent bodies has reduced during the past 30 or so years so, better to combine resources at this point.
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I have been a Primary Maths Consultant for 10 years. I am an NCETM PD Lead, train for Maths No Problem but have never joined a Maths Association. I am pretty sure this is because I have never been sure which one to join so have ended up joining non of them. Having one with Primary, Secondary and FE sections would be great and I would be the first one to join!
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11/2/2017 11:50:08 am
Together is essential for a sustainable/viable future. Any issues will be resolved if we look for positive solutions.
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Peter Collins
11/2/2017 12:13:27 pm
Should have happened years ago!
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Sidney Tyrrell (Syson)
11/2/2017 12:27:51 pm
At long last! I wholeheartedly welcome this proposal, though recognise the path ahead may not be the easiest. That should not put anyone off, especially as the best teams contain those with different skills and points of view.
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Joan Ashley
11/2/2017 12:49:45 pm
I have been a member of NANAMIC for many years. I joined because I was an FE lecturer but then I also became a tutor on an HE secondary PGCE programme and a mathematics consultant and adviser. Aspects of the work of all the present mathematics associations were of relevance to me and I would have loved to be able to join just one mathematics association with special interest groups.
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K Kaur
11/2/2017 01:02:47 pm
I think with dwindling budgets maths leaders are keen to join one maths body and an amalgamation could help access a wider range of resources and research. I've always joined ATM as their branch meetings are useful and the resources on sale. It would be good if CPD opportunities could be planned collaboratively to support those teaching in different settings.
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Alyson Klein
11/2/2017 02:21:50 pm
I am firmly in favour of an ammagamation that supports maths educators in this country.
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Jillian
11/2/2017 02:36:14 pm
I fully support an amalgamation.
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Derek Peasey
11/2/2017 03:14:15 pm
In principle it is a good idea and probably essential in the present climate but I have six observations.
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Jennie Golding
11/3/2017 07:13:25 am
Really helpful to have some well-thought out observations as well as general support, Derek. As you point out, there are many many aspects to be considered, and it's important that there's a place for the range of mathematics education interests, approaches, views and confidences within any new organisation. We're at present suggesting as a possibility, you'll notice, that some of those are catered for via 'special interest groups' (SIGs). The whole project would need wise, solution-focused steering - but any suggestions to help that on its way are very welcome, and if we don't try, we certainly shan't succeed!
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David Crawford
11/3/2017 12:50:13 am
This is long overdue. Membership of both MA and ATM are falling and it seems strange that when both organisations have essentially the same aim that they should be competing for members.
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Sue Shilton
11/3/2017 01:41:06 am
An excellent idea and long overdue..
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Celia Hoyles
11/3/2017 01:47:19 am
I fully support the amalgamation.
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Alan Parr
11/3/2017 02:52:54 am
Having two similar associations has led to a lot of anomalies, most obviously the bemusement when you suggest that students or teachers join an association and then try to explain there are actually two of them. There have been lots of attempts to link MA and ATM and historically there have been understandable reasons why these have failed.
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Joe J
11/3/2017 04:05:29 am
Wow! This is the most exciting news I have seen all day! Definitely needs to happen! I'm always confused having five associations and this is much clearer.
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Alison Parish
11/3/2017 01:59:06 pm
As we already collaborate in working groups (joint primary and post 16) and submit joint responses to consultations an amalgamation would be a positive and sensible move forward, especially as many members belong to more than one association. We have a common interest, i.e. to remain independent of government and to allow those interested in mathematics education to have a voice, to share ideas and support each other. As an organisation of a viable size we would be able to continue catering for a cross section of interests and producing our excellent journals. There are differences such but where there is a will to overcome these a way will be found and perhaps it is time that the associations discuss the best model (perhaps looking at ASE) to adopt rather than being protective about their own structure.
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Alison Clark-Wilson
11/4/2017 06:43:05 am
I fully support this proposal - there will undoubtedly be some challenges ahead in bringing it to a successful outcome - but where there is a will there is a way!
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David Wright
11/4/2017 08:35:55 am
Completely agree with this proposal. Plenty of goodwill exists and the benefits must make it worth addressing the complex issues involved. I would support the inclusion of the IMA in the discussion too.
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Simon Curzon
11/4/2017 12:18:06 pm
It is a very logical proposal and can only see it as having a positive impact on Maths and the Maths teaching profession.
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Jonny Griffiths
11/4/2017 02:27:57 pm
What would we be called?
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David Miles
11/5/2017 01:29:41 am
As far as I know, no-one has even started to think about possible names yet Jonny. I may be jumping the gun a bit but my suggestion would be something like 'Mathematics Teaching Alliance' as this would acknowledge the coming together of the various organisations.
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Kathryn Darwin
11/5/2017 02:48:30 am
As an RQT I'm yet to have joined any of the maths subject associations because I genuinely feel so overfaced by it. My gut feeling is that an amalgamation would reduce this and get more involvement from maths teachers across the UK - the impact on teaching and learning would then be much greater as a result.
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Ian Swift
11/5/2017 03:58:20 am
I would welcome a single voice for maths teachers and, moreover, professional tutors as I have good reason to believe, would many such as myself.
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Ashley Compton
11/5/2017 06:48:30 am
I think an amalgamation is a great idea. A united voice will be much stronger and is definitely needed.
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Chris Shore
11/5/2017 08:09:39 am
I'm a member of the ATM (and not the MA) and I fully support a merger. Our collective voice is diminished by having so many different bodies. I would welcome joining as many such organisations together as possible (including the IMA). Are there any voices who do not think it would be beneficial?
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Clare Dawe
11/6/2017 09:41:31 am
In this day and age, the organisations that thrive are those who can find a common purpose with a clear and attractive message and who reach out to the widest audience. Within this umbrella, interest groups and strands of expertise can thrive, secure in the knowledge that they are contributing to the wider purpose.
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11/6/2017 02:27:44 pm
I’ve posted some thoughts on my blog here: http://blog.ifem.co.uk/blog/2017/11/06/learned-societies-and-professional-associations/
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11/7/2017 01:25:53 am
I fully support this endeavour.
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Bob Burn
11/7/2017 03:47:36 am
I broadly support amalgamation, But it matters that the distinctive qualities of the different associations must not be lost. To put it simply: I see the MA saying: if you want to be a better maths teacher, learn more mathematics; I see the ATM saying if you want to be a better maths teacher, listen more. These are different modes of awareness. I wonder why BSRLM is not being considered.
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Kevin Davis
11/14/2017 01:13:48 pm
Any idea what will happen about publications?
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Jennie Golding
12/1/2017 09:13:38 am
I can't imagine where this dichotomy comes from, Bob! I think most in the MA and in ATM would say teachers of mathematics need to engage in mathematics in ways that are appropriate to them and their teaching situation, so that mathematics is alive to them, *and* that you can't teach (or learn, and teachers need to do that just as much as students) effectively without listening and responding to what you hear.
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Mark Dawes
11/7/2017 04:06:21 am
It is really good to see so many positive comments and so much goodwill here. Long may that continue. Here are a few additional points that largely haven't been raised already. [I am a member of MA and ATM, so my comments are restricted to those two organisations.]
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11/9/2017 03:53:39 am
Your observations have helped me structure my comments, which I've added below.
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11/8/2017 01:11:42 am
I would love to see one combined body that brings together all that we love and want to encourage about teaching and the learning of maths.
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Phil McBride
11/8/2017 02:41:04 am
I agree with many of the reasons above for amalgamation - the falling numbers is a concern for both associations and merging will hopefully allow teaches not to feel "torn" and join neither.
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Lawrence Smallman
11/8/2017 01:23:03 pm
I always look forward to the MA conferences. I know there will be plenty of opportunities to listen to Mathematicians introducing weird and wonderful topics that will never make it onto a GCSE or A-level syllabus. It is a time when I can enjoy Maths for my own selfish interest. Maths for the sake of Maths.
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Ray Huntley
11/9/2017 04:30:49 am
I'm very pleased that the groundswell of opinion in this discussion is towards a merger of associations. I won't repeat the arguments here, but concur with everything said about finances, membership, representation, conferences and so on.
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Helen williams
11/23/2017 06:33:56 am
Interesting Ray that you say that those who have stated a resistance to amalgamation in the past are keeping quiet as the argument for, builds. I’m not sure this is the case if you hop over to the ATM thread! Also I think it’s unhelpful to phrase what is being discussed here (and there) in these terms. Sorry- but I feel annoyed! To put the cat amongst the pigeons these aren’t decisions that can be taken lightly as they involve people’s livelihoods for starters. And rushing ahead to say - great I’ve been saying it for ages- doesn’t take this fact away. It is crucial and should be where this discussion starts.
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Jenni Back
11/9/2017 10:33:53 am
I have been trying along with many other people involved in primary mathematics education to amalgamate the mathematics subject associations for many years. I think the first joint primary group met at both the ATM and MA conferences in around 2003. This group which started off involving just about a dozen of us now has a mailing list of over 60 people who regularly attend its meeting which are held once a term.
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Vivien Townsend
11/15/2017 03:45:34 am
I am a member of both ATM (and have stood on GC) and ATM (and also of AMET and NAMA). I work both in ITE and with practising teachers, and have always struggled to know which association to recommend, and therefore would welcome one association with various SIGs.
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Rae
11/10/2017 10:15:41 am
I think it would be beneficial for everyone to amalgamate.
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Richard Bridges
11/11/2017 05:40:05 am
PLEASE merge - it is long overdue. I agree with virtually all the views expressed.
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Mark Malhan
11/11/2017 12:35:19 pm
I agree with the thoughts expressed above to merge the subject associations. I decided to re-join the ATM after a 5 year break, back in September. As part of the joiners pack, I received a leaflet for the Chartered Teacher of Mathematics (CMathTeach), I would hope the merger (hopefully with the IMA represented in talks) would help raise its profile and there can be unity in collective purpose. For too long, the maths associations have preached to the already converted, and new entrants to the profession overlook the need to join a subject association. Other benchmarks have filled the gaps that've been left (e.g. SLE's) and I feel now is the time for a collective UK association to claim the mathematics teaching domain.
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David Wells
11/12/2017 01:38:59 am
I agree 100% that it is extremely desirable for the various associations to amalgamate, with the qualification that Special Interest Groups will have to be a major feature of the new entity.
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Lynne McClure
11/12/2017 05:16:41 pm
In common with many contributors above, I have served on various committees of MA and ATM and attended meetings of the MMSA, the group that brings the teacher facing associations together to discuss issues of joint concern.
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Gary Setchell
11/13/2017 01:36:56 pm
Lynne's point above about the promotion of independent thinking is the main reason I would be in favour of a merged SA.
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11/16/2017 08:02:21 am
Think this is a fantastic idea. From a personal perspective, I think it makes a lot of sense and can offer lots of benefits.
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Catherine Farmar
11/16/2017 11:37:29 am
I am so pleased at this news, and the huge number of positive comments I have read here in favour of this move. The People's Front of Judea are talking to the Judean People's Front! On a serious note, I believe that it is vital that Mathematics teachers are heard with one strong voice and this can only be achieved with a single PA. Having been a member of the MA for more than 10 years, attended numerous conferences (MA, joint MA/ATM, BCME) and served on the MA Council I am excited by the prospect for the revitalisation of our organisations and the Mathematics education community as a whole. Bring it on!
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Denise Phillips
11/16/2017 12:57:48 pm
Having read the discussion papers it appears that there are many reasons to amalgamate which have been highlighted, eloquently by Paul Broadbent and Sue Pope:
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11/23/2017 07:54:25 am
Thanks Denise - I've been following the debate on the ATM thread and here and, despite swaying a little with some of the arguments (particularly from ATM members), still think a single professional association has got to be the way forward.
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Richard Browne
11/17/2017 03:58:55 am
I'm very pleased to hear that this sensible idea is being reconsidered and very much support its successful introduction this time.
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Sue Singer
11/18/2017 10:48:58 am
I am delighted to see all this support for what has always seemed to me the sensible and logical way to go. Of course as mentioned in many of the comments above there will be challenges to be met and it is very important to be broad, open and welcoming to different ideas, interests and ways of doing things but this greater diversity could and should add to our overall strength.
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Dave Hewitt
11/27/2017 12:11:46 pm
I will offer some reasons why I am against amalgamation. Although a member for a long time of both MA and ATM, I have spent most of my time involved with ATM, being on the General Council, involved in working groups, writing for Mathematics Teaching and producing software and publications. So this is said mainly from that perspective. I apologise for the length but I feel there is a lot to say.
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Jennie Golding
12/1/2017 09:26:11 am
Dave - thanks for the effort expended in addressing these issues. To me they are very reminiscent of the arguments used when we were considering a move to comprehensive education, with a fear that important parts of what was valued in existing schools would be lost.
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James A Mundie
11/29/2017 04:36:37 am
I first read my school library's copy of the Mathematical Gazette in the early to mid 1970s, then my university library's copy while doing a physics degree. Soon after I became a software developer for the Civil Service I joined the MA. I am now retired.
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Jennie Golding
12/1/2017 09:27:22 am
Received (x n, where n is quite large) and understood!
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Tom Button
12/1/2017 05:25:57 am
I strongly support an amalgamation. As others have said when you look internationally single maths teacher bodies tend to have greater reach and impact and I think the positive news of joining together could be used as a catalyst for a recruitment drive.
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David
12/2/2017 05:35:48 am
The first duty of an association is to serve its members who provide the finance to enable it to operate. I do not believe that an amalgamation will benefit the members of the MA.
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David Miles
12/2/2017 12:04:43 pm
Could you elaborate David? It would be helpful to understand what particularly concerns you.
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David
12/3/2017 09:04:25 am
The MA offers journals from Primary, through Secondary to the Gazette all of which are high quality. Members have a choice as to which they receive and pay accordingly. Symmetry plus, Mathematical Pie and Equals (via the website) are thought provoking. Regular publications add to the offerings to members (and non-members).
Rachael
3/28/2018 02:14:36 am
It will not be smooth sailing but it is the most sensible and logical thing to do.
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